Friday, October 24, 2008

Why I am Against Prop 8 (but not for gay marriage)

Well, sometimes I have problems keeping things respectful, and I am very opinionated, but here's my go at the issue, following the examples of Laini, hwalk (who commented on Laini'sm post), and Anilee.

First, I would like to point out that discrimination is not always bad. We essentially discriminate against criminals: murderers and thieves. We treat them differently. Now I want to be very clear that I have not drawn a parallel between homosexual couples and criminals, and if anyone takes this out of context, or tries to quote me, be assured that If I find out I shall spam and flame to my heart's content with no qualms. One thing I absolutely despise is distortion of what someone else has said like that.

First a little rant on morals: The whole "your discrimination is crude, unamerican and inhuman" is ridiculous. I'm going to discriminate. Who's going to stop me? Do you say that my discrimination is wrong and that I can't force my morals on someone else like that? Congratulations! You've just tried to shove your morals on me, but since no-one can tell anyone else that what they are doing in wrong, I'm free of any guilt you've just tried to place on me. Forgive me for being blunt, but that's dumb.

Now for the issue: I oppose Prop 8 not on the grounds that discrimination against them is unconstitutional, but because the government has no right to mess with "marriage" at all. Civil Unions are the government equivalent of marriage, and is all the government has the right to issue. The basic "marriage" license. Marriage, whether you believe it should be or not, is a church function. Not a religious function, but a church function. Whether it be Mormon, Protestant, Muslim, or Hindu, marriages are nearly always church affairs, with religious leaders preforming ceremonies. That is essentially how I would define marriage; a ceremony preformed outside the legal process and not for legal recognition, but for social recognition and acknowledgment. Government has no place in that. Government should not be deciding who has the right to be socially recognized or not. Government decides what goes into their own records and policies dealing with the legal realm. Social concerns and recognitions are outside their jurisdictions. What would we Christians think if suddenly the government stepped in and said "no more baptism". We would be pretty stinkin mad don't ya think?

Now for my own personal views: Gay marriage = bad. God says so. I believe that as my creator, God's word is law, and that the laws He makes are because He cares what happens to His creation. That being said, even though I do believe that secular government has no role in prohibiting social actions like marriage, it is up to Christians to oppose it socially and not legally. We should not go to the government to complain about what is going on, we should try to go to the people who we believe are in the wrong and present to them what harm we think is happening to society and the world we live because of their actions. For Christians, I think that is the right way to act.

Now it looks very much like I am connecting morals with religion. I am. I pointed out earlier that without standards, there can be no morals period. It just doesn't work. So morals must be connected to some set standard, or you can't have them; whether your morals are based on religion, or science you base them on something.

Now I'm going to say some disrespectful stuff.

"Homosexuality is not "a behavior" any more than heterosexuality is, any more than race or gender are. It is part of who a person is, and you are setting yourself up to decide who can be allowed to BE, and who cannot. That's scary stuff, and in the extreme it leads to very bad outcomes, like genocide."

Prove it.

your time would probably be better spent helping people who really need help, say, domestic abuse victims, child abuse, etc...It is fascinating to me how many so-called religious people get so up in arms about unborn children, but yet actually do so very little to help people after they are here, whether they are straight or gay, poor, etc. I think Jesus would be horrified at what people spend their lives focusing on and doing in his name. Jesus hung out with prostitutes, was a community organizer (the very thing Palin tried to demonize in her convention speech)..meanwhile the Republican party, which has been hijacked by the Christian Right, fights against paying more taxes even in a time of war, when btw, the Bible itself states you are supposed to give a whole lot of alms and all. Hwalk, if you are so deeply religious, wouldn't your time be better spent volunteering at a domestic abuse shelter than further stirring the pot of discrimination and human abuse laws?

Um... well, apparently according to the viewpoint Alexandra is agreeing with, homosexual couples don't need help. Let me put this in perspective for you. When you kill a unborn child, you are denying him/her the right to choose to be gay or straight. Chew on that for a bit. Jesus did hang out with prostitutes, and He loved them, because they were people, just as we should do, but he did not condone them or encourage them to keep doing their stuff. I have met openly gay people, and I can honestly say that I treated them with as much respect and love as I would any other person. Their lifestyle disgusted me, but as a person, they were just as kind and friendly as anyone else regardless of what I view as "their mistakes." As for the Republican party, it proposes reforms before taxes. And, The Bible says to give for God's work, but also to "render to Caesar what is Caeser's", meaning to pay taxes. One refers to what you give back to further what we view as "God's work here on earth", the other refers to what you give to the government what it demands whether good or ill that he has placed over you. Republicans pay taxes too. That doesn't mean that we can't appeal to Caesar to lower taxes. If you don't like the law, try to change it, and if you can't change it obey it or leave. Well, Republicans try to change tax laws they don't like, same as Democrats, and if they can't chagne it, they still pay the taxes.

Hwalk, thanks for your comments. I see you are deeply indoctrinated in a worldview of intolerance, and you feel good about yourself for it. It makes me sad when people who don't sound evil or cruel embrace intolerance with a smile and a chest thump of moral rectitude. Your beliefs aren't "trivial" to me; they are disheartening.

I'm sorry Laini that you have been too biggotted to go beyond you ant-christian "bubble" and accept that someone else's "opinions" may be just as valid as your own unfounded ones. You have nothing to base your morals on, so you can't have anything but opinions. You, Laini have been indoctrinated by the world. You use the word to sound like brainwashing, as if she didn't have a choice, and you did. Well, if Hwalk has been indoctrinated, then you have too. She by her church, and you by your world and your liberal education.

I am proud of Hwalk for standing up to what she beleived was wrong, whether you. Laini believe her stupid or not. I think that she made very good points and presented what I consider to be Truth so that any open minded person could understand. I guess you and your readers aren't of that type. I'm truly sorry. It saddens me. I can still love you as a person, but I can not respect you opinions.

If you find it offensive, I'm probably doing a good job.


anilee said...

I understood some of Heather's comments, but I still disagreed. And others I didn't understand. Like how gay marriage is harmful for society. That just baffles me. I understand that the Bible calls it a crime, but how does that make it bad for society?

re: homosexuality being a behavior or not.

Is there proof that it *isn't* a behavior?

I have to say that I do find the Mormon belief system to be intolerant to some extent. I find Christianity to be intolerant to some extent. I don't think that I have been indoctrinated (I was just taught to be a good person, not what to believe. For example, I have no idea if my parents support gay marriage or not. Truthfully, I think I'm more liberal than they are. And I was certainly never really taught to believe in God; for a while, I thought my mom was ridiculous for saying that she thought there had to be something out there, but now I believe that to some extent God exists so whatever) I respect everyone's right to believe as they see fit, but that doesn't mean that I don't feel saddened by their beliefs or sorry for them.

But then, I suppose a lot of people are saddened by what I believe or feel sorry for me, so I guess it's all fair.

Anonymous said...

I've got to say that I agree with your post. I attend a non-denominational church, and for several weeks now my youth group has been discussing Prop 8. Several of us (including myself)agree that government has no right to mess with marriage at all.

And, well, I believe that God created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Somnite said...

Turning your question around, Anilee, is there proof that it *isn't* a lifestyle choice? I mean sure they've done studies with people, but I don't believe they've ever studied children from birth to determine hormone levels, just adults, and its just as possible for the hormone levels to have changed after the person made the choice to live that lifetsyle. Just saying that there is as much proof either way as far as I've seen and that either one could be correct. I am open to seeing the studies that tell me that the hormones are different from birth.

But if we consider for a moment that it is not a choice, but a propensity in us from birth to be gay or straight, then we have to look at it like this. We are all born with the capability of good, but the tendency to do evil. We can choose either one: the accepted path or the unacceptable one. So if we are all born with the tendency towards one sexual orientation or the other, we can make a choice. Whether it be an easy one or not, I can't say, but we have a choice. Nothing like hormones can control our actions, they can only make it easier to do one thing or the other.

anilee said...

But homosexuality ISN'T evil. (You are welcome to think that it's sinful, but since when did sinning make you an evil person?) Being gay doesn't make you a bad person; it just makes you gay. You can be a moral gay person or an immoral gay person. You can be a moral straight person or an immoral straight person. You can be a moral atheist or an immoral atheist. You can be a moral Christian or you can be an immoral Christian.

Your sexual orientation or your religion or your race doesn't make you a good or a bad person. Your religion may help you be a better person because it gives you a moral system to follow and a fear of punishment if you don't follow it, but that doesn't keep you from being human and making mistakes.

And I don't believe that loving another human is a mistake. It's a mistake *not* to love. I would much rather know a gay couple who are moral and in love than a straight couple who are abusive and mean and unpleasant and just not good people.

Also, innocent until proven guilty. You can't prove that gays are guilty of doing anything wrong (the bible does not count as proof, as it is a religious text, and in America, there is separation of church and state). I can't prove that they aren't, but applying the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" which is part of the American legal system, gays aren't doing anything wrong until there's scientific evidence to suggest that they are committing a crime against humanity and not a crime against the Christian church.

Besides, if marriage is a church function and NOT a state function, why do married couples receive benefits from the state? If it's simply a church thing, then they shouldn't.

Somnite said...

I'm truly sorry, I know I shall come across in this as harsh and sarcastic, but I don't know how else to put this and still reply.

But see, you can't try to put your view on me though. I believe that being gay is wrong because I have a set of moral values that determines that for me so I have something to base my life on. Your opinion is that it is ok, mine is that it is not. Really, if it is my truth based on my belief system that it is evil, then you can't say anything about my opinions because whatever you have is your truth and is true for you. We are both right, no?

"Your sexual orientation or your religion or your race doesn't make you a good or a bad person." In my truth being a person makes you inherently bad and none are worse than anyone else. Some "sins" are more noticeable than others and are therefore considered more unacceptable, but that is being legalistic. All sin is sin and none is worse than any other. I think homosexuals should be treated no worse than liars. Hate the sin love the sinner.

"I would much rather know a gay couple who are moral". But here you are trying to tell me my truth is wrong in that a gay couple can be moral, when my truth clearly states that it can't be. Moral and gay are mutually exclusive in my truth.

Besides, if marriage is a church function and NOT a state function, why do married couples receive benefits from the state? If it's simply a church thing, then they shouldn't. I am agreed. the gov should have nothing whatsoever to do with marriage, but this is from civil unions, which is perfectly within the rights of the state to mess with seeing as it was created by the state as a way to recognize people for recording and benefits purposes. Marriage should be something completely different. Civil Unions and Marriages are two different processes that a couple goes through. Some skip marriage altogether and just get the license. They don't both have to be done though. I am considering when I get married, not signing a marriage license or anything of the sort. I don't need government recognition or benefits to commit my life to something like that.

~Firefly~ said...

You said some of the things I really wanted to say but didn't because I was trying to be respectful. However, I'll admit here that Laini's comments about being fair and respectful and nice to others were totally hypocritical based upon the way she treated those she didn't agree with. Truthfully, it was disgusting. This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed, it has to do with the way she was treating human beings and I really found it offensive.

Thanks for standing up for what you believe... it's not easy, and I really appreciate it. (same Anilee- you too, for standing up for what you believe. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't matter. It's the fact that you're willing to do it that matters).

And Jess, that was hilarious. :)

anilee said...

When I used "moral", I meant more "good people at heart". Christianity doesn't have an exclusive use of the world "moral" after all. But I fully am aware that you think it immoral, and that's not what I meant by calling it a gay couple "moral", since I don't think that sexual orientation is really part of morality. I apologize for not clarifying.

It was my impression that civil unions do not give you the all the same rights and benefits as being married. And that is wrong. I am fine with not calling it "marriage" (I'd prefer it if it were called "marriage", but I can compromise), but a same-sex couple should have EVERY right that a married couple has.

Music Console

Hit counter